Police State

[gothwalk]

Er. Wow. Girl says something "subversive" on LJ, and the FBI turn up on her doorstep.

I have a cold, and I can't think, but still - does that seem completely insane to anyone else?

Comments

[mcsnee.livejournal.com]

Well, two things. As murnkay has pointed out, the Secret Service is obligated by law to investigate any threat to the President. And, I assume because of the visit by the folks in the suits, we don't know what the user said to begin with. If it were something innocuous like "I really, really hate George Bush," that'd be one thing. If it were something more threatening, they might have had a point.

[mr-wombat.livejournal.com]

Someone reported her to the FBI for a threat she made against "president" bush in the run up to the elections, their response seems reasonable to me. That said, they should probably track down the person who made the complaint and give them a slap for wasting their time.

Its their job to follow up on these things, just because we don't like the current president doesn't mean its ridiculous for them to follow up to this kind of thing.

[mr-wombat.livejournal.com]

And as for the myriad of tools going on about 1984... there has to be some equivalent of Godwin's law for that one. This kind of stupidity (both her posting threats AND the collective outrage) gets right up my fucking nose.

[dorianegray.livejournal.com]

Not really, to be honest. I mean, yeah, it's crazy and scary, and it must have been some shock to the poor woman - but as one of her commenters said, the US Secret Service is paid to take apparent threats to the US President seriously. If they get a heads-up, they have to check it out (and someone did "shop" her). The Secret Service guys were doing their job, and apparently doing it very nicely and treating her with respect.

What is crap, and insane, is that someone would deliberately go and make the Secret Service think that investigating that innocent person was part of their job.

[bardiphouka.livejournal.com]

Without having read the original thread it is hard for me to comment. Certainly the SS and FBI should do their job. On the other hand, there is that whole freedom of speech issue. Having had brushes with the SS,FBI,Homeland Security and the RCMP I can say that the US side does tend to overdo things more than a tad.

[sage-and-sea.livejournal.com]

In response to Bush's statement that he could "feel when Americans pray for him," Annie suggested that she would pray for him to feel an aneurism. Her post was turned in by someone specific, so it's not like they just showed up after doing a google search.

[gothwalk.livejournal.com]

A glance down her profile would have saved them several manhours. If they're trying to chase down every single published word of threat against the current incumbent, without doing any further checking, there is something actually wrong - institutional paranoia, or the like.

[mr-wombat.livejournal.com]

And the fucktards going on about "freedom of speech" and "mccarthyism". No one is stopping her from saying what she wants to say (but acting surprised when you get pulled up for it is rank idiocy) and she wasn't charged, they realised she's a random goon on the internet and did nothing. Fuck me, these dimbulbs are a bigger threat to america than a dozen george bushes.

[gothwalk.livejournal.com]

Uh... that's hardly threatening, is it? I mean, power of prayer, yeah, but still...

[mr-wombat.livejournal.com]

Praying for someone to die?... no, not crazy or threatening or sinister in the least :)

[gothwalk.livejournal.com]

Apprently (see below in these comments, and unconfirmed because the post has been deleted) she said that she'd pray for him to have an aneurysm. That's not really a threat, right?

[gothwalk.livejournal.com]

'scuse me, Mister Black Suit? There's this buncha people praying for the end of the world. Yeah, rapture, that bunch. Uh-huh. That sounds like terrorism to me, better go sort 'em out.

[iresprite.livejournal.com]

Still, tincanwombat's got it. This is their job. I'm glad to hear they did it kindly. Yes, it's a nasty thing for people to report innocent people, but glancing down her profile doesn't mean anything when it comes to actually meeting a person and gauging them as a person.

The insane part was the person who reported them. *shrugs*

[iresprite.livejournal.com]

*resets Ludicrous Threshold*

It's when people get specific with their prayer requests that Mister Black Suit gets concerned. :)

[mr-wombat.livejournal.com]

Theres a big difference between holding a general, if lunatic, belief and praying for a specific person who they are charged with protecting, to die.

[mcsnee.livejournal.com]

There's a HUGE difference between "I'm praying that something terrible happens to you" and "I am going to purchase a gun and shoot you with it."

Unless you're a "faith-based Presimident," I guess.

[mr-wombat.livejournal.com]

Not on the "FBI crazyness scale" or their patented "CrazYoMeter" I guess

[gothwalk.livejournal.com]

Is there? I don't see it.

X is bad. All X must come to an end.
This particular X is bad. This particular X must come to an end.

How is the latter a worse statement?

[mcsnee.livejournal.com]

Theres a big difference between holding a general, if lunatic, belief and praying for a specific person who they are charged with protecting, to die.

So it's perfectly okay to think "all white people must die," but it's criminal to think "Jay Leno must die?"

[mr-wombat.livejournal.com]

Bear in mind that my sum knowledge of the FBI comes from television (however well researched that may be) but:

I don't think its a matter of how bad it is. Wishing for an end to the world is a damned sight worse than wishing for a president to perish. However ending the world is beyond the scope of most people thanfully. Conspiracies aside, it IS within the abilities of an individual to kill a president. Now if our hypothetical group were praying for the death of the president it would be a different matter. The method or phrase being used is of less consequence than the idea expressed.

For that matter, the FBI presumably does not operate using that kind of absolute logic when they have teams of experts and decades of experience to tell them what they need to keep an eye out for. I doubt they have the resources to cover every single threat made against the president AND their regular duties.

[mr-wombat.livejournal.com]

Well actually in your example both are apparantly okay because neither is the president.
This is not to say that the FBI wouldn't take at least a passing interest in extremist groups but thats not the issue here.. or at least it wasn't, or something...

[iresprite.livejournal.com]

Probably because, in some cases, the difference between those two statements is a bowel movement and an LSD-laced coffee.

Or something.

[mr-wombat.livejournal.com]

To quote myself for a second
"The method or phrase being used is of less consequence than the idea expressed."

Which brings me to my next point. No one is saying you cannot express whatever you want but you can expect ears to prick up at certain ideas. It is a federal crime to threaten the president, stupid or not it is the law and you can't break laws and expect no consequences just because you think they're stupid.

[valkyriekaren.livejournal.com]

It's the difference between stating a public wish that nobody have abortions any more, and stating a public wish that your local Planned Parenthood clinic gets firebombed, I guess. One is a vague "wouldn't the world be a better place if...?", and the other could be taken as an exhortation to do something about it.

[dorianegray.livejournal.com]

Yeah but - I think that visit was the further checking! It seems unlikely that they'd take a random internet posting (even after being pointed at it) and go straight to the source without doing a rundown on what else was available on that person. I don't know the woman; I don't know what else they might or might not have found in a routine check on her before visiting her. Presumably they either (a) found something that made them think she might possibly be dodgy or (b) (more likely) didn't find anything that made them think they could utterly rule this one out. So they erred on the side of caution and paid her a visit.

I just blink a lot when I contrast this with the level of security our President gets. I have twice been in a position where I could have assassinated or at least attacked our President before anything could have been done to stop me (theoretically speaking; in practice I had neither the means nor the desire).

[graylion.livejournal.com]

a prayer is not a threat.

[mr-wombat.livejournal.com]

I dunnow, if someone prayed for my death I'd feel pretty bloody threatened :)

[graylion.livejournal.com]

A thread is "I am going to kill that fucker". Praying does not constiture direct action or even anything close to it. I'd rather my enemies prayed that I die rather than they actually did something about it.

[cosmicirony.livejournal.com]

I don't think we can afford to have the FBI and Secret Service tracking down everyone who expresses a "threat" as innocuous as the one in question. There must be millions of people who have wished for a swift end to this administration, and if it could be accomplished by divine intervention it would be a delicious irony.

There is a vast difference between a threat and a credible threat. It sounds like thie "uniter" has managed to put people on edge.

[mr-wombat.livejournal.com]

yes, but ultimately, God helps those who help themselves.

[holzman.livejournal.com]

It's pretty standard. It's illegal to threaten the President, and the Secret Service is required to investigate anything that indicates such a threat.

For example, there have been ministers who have not merely been investigated, but actually prosecuted, for preaching the the President was hell-bound because of a given policy. I don't know of such a case in this administration, but that's been how broad an approach they've taken to the concept of "threaten the President" for a very long time.

During the Clinton Administration, Senator Jesse Helms scored himself a visit from the Secret Service after mentioning in public that Clinton had better not visit any military bases in South Carolina, because the soldiers down there weren't too hapy with him. (As an amusing side note, Clinton visited their base shortly afterwards and jogged around it in a windbreaker jacket that said "COMMANDER IN CHIEF" in big yellow letters.

If the approach that the government has always taken to threats against the President is understood, it's completely predictable that the Secret Service would have visited this person once they were aware of the journal entry.

[mr-wombat.livejournal.com]

Using the creative license afforded the paranoid that could easily be interpreted as "given the chance, I would cause the president to die from brain explosions".
That said, it seems like an obviously throwaway statement to me but obviously not to some folk.

[springinautumn.livejournal.com]

Thanks. And here's a copy of what I've replied, in other LJ's where they have this item going...

The fact that everything one puts out on the Net, can or is able to be read by someone... This is far from new.

This person writes that; "I said some rather inflammatory things about George W. Bush in a public post in my LJ, done in a satirical style. We laughed, we ranted, we all said some things. I thought it was a fairly harmless (and rather obvious) attempt at humor..."

Dear This Person.... How long have you been on the Net? Have you not yet learned that _someone_ will usually be unable to discern satirical style and/or humor? Have you never seen a *Flame War*?

Don't know about you, but I don't want anything 'threatening' to be directed at me. If you feel the same, then don't direct anything 'threatening' at anyone else. It seems kind of common sense.

Yes, common sense. Not an abridgment of my Freedom of Speech or whatever... Simple common sense. Imho.