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Something that several people have expressed in their comment on a previous post is that making a comment like "goddamned Catholics" is somehow out of line. It's out of line because it's disrespectful.
I walk for half an hour, morning and evening, these days, on the way to and from work, and that gives me some thinking time. Yesterday evening I was thinking about this issue of respect. Particularly respect of religions.
In a manner that I think the ancient Greeks used, I'm going to present this as a dialogue, because this is often how I think. Some people may recognise the names; they're not necessarily what those characters would think, but they're close and convenient voices.
Arc of Fire: Explain to me why I should respect a religion I have no part of, and whose tenets I do not hold true.
Calpurnius: Because that religion does good and useful things.
Arc of Fire: But that religion also does bad and less than useful things.
Calpurnius: Those are the actions of certain practioners of the religion, not the religion itself.
Arc of Fire: So I am free not to respect the individual practitioners, as long as I continue to respect the religion?
Calpurnius: Yes.
Arc of Fire: Is this in general or in particular?
Calpurnius: In general.
Arc of Fire: So what happens if a religion works on the basis of slavery and sacrifice? Must it too be respected? Or one that holds that the world is secretly governed by pigeons?
Calpurnius: No, a religion's practices must fall into certain accepted categories of behaviour and sense before it requires respect.
Arc of Fire: With regard to the practices of the religion under discussion, do its practices fall into these accepted categories?
Calpurnius: I believe so.
Arc of Fire: What happens if I do not believe that the categories are acceptable?
Calpurnius: Can you give an example?
Arc of Fire: If the religion holds that its practices must be enshrined in law and applied to all people, regardless of their own beliefs?
Calpurnius: The religion under discussion does not not hold that - other related religions do.
Arc of Fire: It is nowhere written that it holds that, but if you examine the histories as I have, you will see that its efforts for centuries have been concentrated on making that the case.
Calpurnius: That can be seen.
Arc of Fire: So what basis is there for respect?
The discussion trails off here, mainly because Arc has Calpurnius backed into a corner (and this is where the characters become just voices in my head, because the real Arc would never argue with Calpurnius on religion, much less win).
But it seems to me that what people are saying is that I must respect a religion because it is a religion, and I don't accept that. Nobody can make me respect Scientology, and you'll have the greatest of difficulty in getting me to respect certain more odd sects of the Religions of the Book. Yet I respect the personal religion that certain people I know have, and some of these people call themselves Christians.
I do respect the right of all people to hold their own beliefs. I'm not challenging that. But discuss, please. I'm not arguing one side over the other; I just want to know what other people think - should any and every religion be respected simply because it is a religion? Because in my mind at least, I can respect it because it's a religion, or I can respect it because it is right - and of course I do not believe that any religion other than my own is right.
I walk for half an hour, morning and evening, these days, on the way to and from work, and that gives me some thinking time. Yesterday evening I was thinking about this issue of respect. Particularly respect of religions.
In a manner that I think the ancient Greeks used, I'm going to present this as a dialogue, because this is often how I think. Some people may recognise the names; they're not necessarily what those characters would think, but they're close and convenient voices.
Arc of Fire: Explain to me why I should respect a religion I have no part of, and whose tenets I do not hold true.
Calpurnius: Because that religion does good and useful things.
Arc of Fire: But that religion also does bad and less than useful things.
Calpurnius: Those are the actions of certain practioners of the religion, not the religion itself.
Arc of Fire: So I am free not to respect the individual practitioners, as long as I continue to respect the religion?
Calpurnius: Yes.
Arc of Fire: Is this in general or in particular?
Calpurnius: In general.
Arc of Fire: So what happens if a religion works on the basis of slavery and sacrifice? Must it too be respected? Or one that holds that the world is secretly governed by pigeons?
Calpurnius: No, a religion's practices must fall into certain accepted categories of behaviour and sense before it requires respect.
Arc of Fire: With regard to the practices of the religion under discussion, do its practices fall into these accepted categories?
Calpurnius: I believe so.
Arc of Fire: What happens if I do not believe that the categories are acceptable?
Calpurnius: Can you give an example?
Arc of Fire: If the religion holds that its practices must be enshrined in law and applied to all people, regardless of their own beliefs?
Calpurnius: The religion under discussion does not not hold that - other related religions do.
Arc of Fire: It is nowhere written that it holds that, but if you examine the histories as I have, you will see that its efforts for centuries have been concentrated on making that the case.
Calpurnius: That can be seen.
Arc of Fire: So what basis is there for respect?
The discussion trails off here, mainly because Arc has Calpurnius backed into a corner (and this is where the characters become just voices in my head, because the real Arc would never argue with Calpurnius on religion, much less win).
But it seems to me that what people are saying is that I must respect a religion because it is a religion, and I don't accept that. Nobody can make me respect Scientology, and you'll have the greatest of difficulty in getting me to respect certain more odd sects of the Religions of the Book. Yet I respect the personal religion that certain people I know have, and some of these people call themselves Christians.
I do respect the right of all people to hold their own beliefs. I'm not challenging that. But discuss, please. I'm not arguing one side over the other; I just want to know what other people think - should any and every religion be respected simply because it is a religion? Because in my mind at least, I can respect it because it's a religion, or I can respect it because it is right - and of course I do not believe that any religion other than my own is right.
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From:
r-e-s-p-e-c-t
given that, i do not like or admire any aspects of catholicism. or any other organized religion.* because of the nature of my problems with organized religion (mindless adherence, basing one's spirituality on what anyone else tells them to think, loss of individuality, the need for hierophants, attitudes towards women in many cases, etc...) i'm going to have a hard time with anyone who adheres to those religions, because if they can follow them wholeheartedly, then there's some basic difference in how ze and i see the world, which will probably result in somewhat oppositional positions on things.
that said, i will of course give someone the chance to prove me wrong - maybe someone calls zirself a "catholic" because they grew up that way, are comfortable in the church setting, etc etc, but zir beliefs really reflect a more buddhist or hindu or "pagan" philosophy of religion. because that person is more open minded, thinks more for zirself and has a well-thought-out, coherent belief system, yes, i will respect zir. i might not respect those beliefs, might even think they're silly, but i know that zie has really put time & effort into it on zir own
am i capable of respecting people despite their religions? yes. do i respect "religions" in general? hell, no. there are one or two that i think have a really right-on attitude and find most or all of the practitioners to be really nifty & interesting people.
now this might start to make me sound bigoted, but i'm not saying "i hate everyone who is x" or even that i think anything of anyone who is x, y or z. in the case of religion, i feel it's a conscious choice people are making about their lives. people don't chose to be born white, or poor, or male, but they do choose what they believe and how they practice those beliefs.
*there are some religions that i wouldn't really put into the category "organized" - those that don't have any requirements or regulations and don't have any hierarchical structure. there's 1 or 2.
From:
Re: r-e-s-p-e-c-t
What a complete load of insulting crap. Christ... school does that to people quicker and more efficiently. Exactly what religions are you talking about that demands unquestioning obedience and robs people of their identity?
I've not been a part of organised religion for...ooh... seven or eight years now... and you know, it never made a difference to the fact that I am a beautiful unique snowflake.....