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I've just spoken to a doctor from the clinic where I'm getting the vasectomy done. She's agreed to do it, but she also tried to talk me out of it on the basis that I'm too young.
I don't understand this reasoning. At 25, I'm old enough to vote, drink, own a gun, drive a car, and, get this one, old enough to decide to have kids. Or, indeed, have six of them already. But I can't decide not to? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would have thought that having kids was more of a decision than not having them. More life-changing, more expensive, more of a strain on an already over-strained planet?
<offensive>Goddamn Catholics.</offensive>
I don't understand this reasoning. At 25, I'm old enough to vote, drink, own a gun, drive a car, and, get this one, old enough to decide to have kids. Or, indeed, have six of them already. But I can't decide not to? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would have thought that having kids was more of a decision than not having them. More life-changing, more expensive, more of a strain on an already over-strained planet?
<offensive>Goddamn Catholics.</offensive>
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Hmm.
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Um. Get some sperm saved somewhere, just in case? :)
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Adoption
OK, I'm with you on the second part of that. But speaking from wide experience, prospective adoptive parents have to jump through far few hoops. There are "Irish" kids sitting in Romanian orphanages now because some "nice", Irish, childless couples decided to adopt and "jumped through the hoops" - then found they couldn't cope. Solution: send the child back. There are dozens of Irish couples who jumped through the hoops, got approval to adopt, and then went to baby broker agencies and offered them a blank checkbook. The number one source for adoptions into Ireland for a while was Guatemala - where many adoption lawyers have been jailed for child trafficking (q.v. www.casa-alianza.org). Every week in the GRO, a civil servant has to tell someone for the first time that they've been adopted, because the adoptive parents who "jumped through the hoops" never bothered telling them. There are adoptive parents who, thanks to challenging the introduction of age limits, collect both a children's allowance and an old-age pension.
I could go on, but this isn't the place.
Adoption has to be in the best interests of the child - always. It should be about finding the best parents for the child, not the other way around. Sure, 'natural' families can screw that up, but at least in adoption it can be aspired to.
Respectfully,
Anton
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Having said that, I don't believe it's a duty everyone has, to have them - in most social animals, breeding is done by some animals but not all. In wolves for example, only the alpha male & female breed - the rest of the pack however play a vital role in seeing that there is enough food for all, including their nieces and nephews.
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I don't think you can lay this advice at the door of Catholics. And don't get me started on why *nothing* should be laid at the door of *any* group of people like that.
Oh and for what it's worth, while I may think you're too young, it is your choice to do it, but I don't think you should get upset about advice from anyone.
Now if the doctor had said "no" for some reason that would be very different.
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I'm not getting upset as much as annoyed at the one-sidedness of the advice - the response to having children is always "Congratulations", the response to not having them is "Why? And here're the reasons you should..."
If 25 is too young to make that decision, then why can I vote/drink/drive/etc? Those decisions affect far more than two people.
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I dig that you don't want kids, but I think I agree with what someone else said about the doctor making sure. I obviously don't know what's going on in the doctor's head- whether she's really in the Catholic mindset or not- but I'd ask you to consider that the whole social engineering thing might not just be about the Catholic church, but about your culture in general.
Granted, it's a very Catholic country, but there's a lot more to a country than that. And I hope you think there's more to Catholics than a stubborn mindset about childbearing. If nothing else, I'd consider your choice to be valid.
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Because when a person tells you they're having a baby, it's a bit late to start on some rant about why people shouldn't have kids.
And in my short short life, I've known many more people who's lives were opened up and enriched by having children, then not. So when it happens for someone else, then I'm genuinely happy for them.
But, Drew, if this is the right thing to do, if having kids would make you unhappy, then I do, quite sincerely, congratulate you.
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Two-sided coin.
FWIW, this is not entirely true. When I tell people that I am planning to have children as part of my future, and that I am trying to quit smoking and exercise regularly and eat properly so that I will be healthy throughout pregnancy, and that I am planning a great honeymoon because it will probably be the only holiday we ever take without children untl we retire, people say "Are you crazy? Why do you want kids? You're so young - you have so many choices - why do you want kids?"
Worse, they say "You'll change your mind when you have some!"
I think the automatic "Congratulations!" is at least partially because by then it's too late.
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They're not, really. Sure, I can stop voting, stop drinking, sell the car and the gun, but what I have done with them in the meantime cannot be reversed.
My point, more clearly: If I am allowed to make decisions that affect other people's lives, I am allowed to make decisions that affect my own. People have not tried to talk me out of voting (indeed, the opposite is true), drinking likewise, and I'm encouraged by many to learn to drive.
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I don't think even the reversible vasectomies are reliably reversible, BTW. But then, although men can father babies into their senior years, I read that as they get older the kids tend to have more and more problems, so men aren't as reproductively immune to aging as we've thought for a long time. It's best done young, physically, by both sexes. Although emotionally and mentally, young isn't ideal...
I'm rambling now! But I think you should trust your instincts on this. All we can do in making choices is make the best ones we know how, and you've clearly thought this one through. :)
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You wrote:
I'm not getting upset as much as annoyed at the one-sidedness of the advice - the response to having children is always "Congratulations", the response to not having them is "Why? And here're the reasons you should..."
Is that really true? The latter part, that is, about people always giving you the reasons to have kids after you say you don't want to be a parent? If so, that sucks, and those people are stupid. You're right, it's totally your choice, and please feel good about it. People are different--some of them have kids, or adopt kids, and some of them don't. None is better than the other for any reason.
Now some parents are cruel and insensitive toward their own children, and some who don't have kids are cruel and insensitive toward children. And there's the real problem... but that's another thread.
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There's no-one interfering with your choice to not have kids. By all means decide not to. But there is a difference between making a decision to not have kids and having elective surgery.
All that woman was doing was trying to convince you to keep your options open. Or was making sure that you were sure. I think most councillors do that, on one level or another. And I think they're right to do that, if it saves the one confused person in a hundred who's doing it for the wrong reasons.
And a bit of respect for other people's religions, Drew. You'd be the first one (and rightly so) to stand up and shout if people were off-handedly knocking pagans.
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The pseudo-html tags are meant to imply something that's not to be taken seriously; my apologies if you're actually offended.
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For the record, I would never say you shouldn't do that, but I would say that you should be prepared to have a lot of people react badly.
If that wasn't the way you meant it, then cool, I'll veer away from any comments about people randomly blaming large groups of people for things they didn't do, like the A-Team :)
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Hello? I'd rather have my lungs pulled out through my throat.
It's not just the Catholics.
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A lot of things I knew five years ago have been proven to be crap. Five years from now I confidently expect to think I was full of crap right now.
It sounds wierd that you couldn't learn from, or change as a result of your experiences (or even biological imperatives)
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Some people just know. And it's not nice to mock them for that knowledge.
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Hope you don't get any more grief, Drew. It's your decision and, well-intentioned or not, you had reached a stage where the doctor did not need to question you. Seems she decided to do so for "moral" reasons.
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Two things
2) Your doc is probably asking you "are you sure" thinking you might indeed change your mind someday and to cover her ass in today's world of sue whoever you think did you wrong. There's probably too many vasectomy doctors who've been sued by somebody who was sure they were sure when they had the surgery and then changed their mind later and sued the doctor using something like, "they didn't ask me if I was sure" as an argument in court and won.
You'll make what ever decision is right for you and everyone else will deal with it, doctor included. :D
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Yes. You're right. That is extremely offensive Drew. Acknowedgment or not, I'd appreciate it if you didn't do it again. At least not where I can see/hear it.
1) Do you actually *know* she was a "Goddamn Catholic", or are you just making an assumption based on the fact that we're in Ireland? You are far more intelligent than that.
2) Catholicism or otherwise has - or at least has not necessarily - got anything to do with it, for crying out loud. For what it's worth, I actually agree with her, but it is not my place to tell anyone what to do on this kind of subject, regardless of how ill-conceived I might think the idea is (If it was harming somebody, then I'd say something :) )
But 25 *is* young to make that kind of decision. I know I'm only a couple of years older than you Drew, so pulling the age card is a bit rich, but I *am* older. Old enough to know that what we believe, what we *know* for a fact, at one time is not necessarily always going to be the case. The doctor wold just be wanting to be sure you'd thought it through. She can't know how much thought and consideration you've put into this, and it is her job to make sure you don't do something you'll regret later. A vasectomy may not be quite as final and irreversible as a hysterectomy, but it is still a fairly drastic procedure and very, very seriously reduces someone's chances of ever having kids. Obviously, since that's rather the point. And whatever you say or think you *don't* know now, at this moment, that in 5 or 10 or 20 years time, you aren't going to have changed your mind about wanting children. You can't say you never want to have children. All you can say for certain is that you never want to have children *now*. No-one knows what they are going to want in 10 years time.
Now, this is not meant to be by way of telling you you're wrong and trying to get you to change your mind. It's your mind and your life and not mine. And although I don't know you as well as I could, I know you well enough to believe that you have undoubtedly given this long and hard and complete thought. This is just by way of pointing out what the doctor's - and other people's - points of view are or might be.
It is the doctor's job to make sure you're not being rash. She's not out to thwart you.
And if I ever hear you, even in anger, *especially* in anger, ranting and giving out about someone's religion again, I will have to think long and hard about what respect I have for you. It would still be the doctor's job even if she was pagan!
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Sweet mother of crap....
Why do people even feel the need to justify their actions anyway? you can afford it, you want to do it, do it, do it twice, but don't feel you have to justify it to others, or seek their opinion.
Oh and for those of you who seem to think that you'll *never* want children.. remember a point when you thought boys/girls were yucky? Yeah, well that happens more than once in your life, not to everyone, but don't assume it won't happen you.
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People can have kids, it's everyone's own decision, a decision which should not be meddles by others.
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thank you for sharing
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Anyway, uR a CATHOLIC u should forgiv him for not wanting chldren.
Duty... shit, just what the world needs, more people brought into the world because of a misguided religeous dogma as opposed to the good reasons, like love... or a bet...