Query for gamers, particularly inexperienced ones

[gothwalk]

Is there something counterintuitive about the principle in RPGs of race and class? I've been dealing with a number of newcomers to RPGs recently, and no matter how carefully I explain that you choose a race and a class, I get people wanting to play one or other, a gnome or a wizard, an elf or a rogue, and so on. These people are smart, and get the concept of roleplaying, and so on - it's just this one bit that seems to defy understanding.

Comments

[silja.livejournal.com]

Well, it is a long time since I was a new starter, but I often mentor new players in the Camarilla. I haven't seen the problem you mention really. The system is slightly different than D&D type systems of course, but have you tried explaining it in terms of "race/culture" (for race) and "job" (for class)? That can also explain why race tends to influence attributes more (born with), and class tends to influence abilities more (learnt).

[loupblanc.livejournal.com]

Maybe if you replace "Class" by "job" or "activity" or something like that. To me "Class" means "noble" or "peasant" or "gentry" ...

[caturah.livejournal.com]

Perhaps you need to stress the class more so than the race, and explain explicitly where class is and is not restricted by "culture".

[salith.livejournal.com]

Step them through it one part at a time.
Race, then class. Treat them totally seperately.

[ex-agname.livejournal.com]

Mmm, it could be that some people see the stereotypes of races as being restrictive to what their class is (I can't believe I'm talking about stereotypes of fake people). Most people will read that Elves are magical, Dwarves are engineers and miners, Humans are builders and fighters etc.

[mollydot.livejournal.com]

I'd say it that. I tend to think elf or fighter because my first role playing was the old D+D, but even if they haven't roleplayed before, they could have picked it up from computer games, books, films.

[bastun-ie.livejournal.com]

Yep - it sounds like maybe they've heard of Basic Dungeons and Dragons at some stage, where you could be a Dwarf, Elf, or (human) Cleric, Fighter, Mage, etc.

[dorianegray.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's what I'd do. "Right, do you want to be human, elven...? Okay. Now, do you want to be a fighter, magic-user...? Okay. So, a gnomish thief it is, then."

[salith.livejournal.com]

Exactly... they might be feeling overwhelmed by the concepts so are just thinking that all elves are wizards, etc.

[b-a-sheep.livejournal.com]

I'm strongly inclined towards the idea of classless, skill-based systems for pholosophical reasons. But not getting the idea of race and class seems to me like not getting the idea of a light switch.

My approach was always a little different....

[will-sample.livejournal.com]

...as I always made the potential player tell me a bit about what their character concept would be as a being, as well as their idea of a possible profession or ethos. From the personality profile, I would narrow the appropriate scope of available races, taking into account the setting of the game. For newbies, the profession or ethos tends to do the same for classes. From there, usually they could refine and pick what they liked best.

The essential communication of the difference is between what one is like, and what one does or believes. Most people can understand it if put that way.

[smarriveurr.livejournal.com]

I've witnessed this syndrome, but never myself had the problem, so all opinions should be taken with a grain of salt. I always thought the idea of "genetics vs skillset" was pretty straightforward, but I think people get muddled by fantasy literature and the real world.

In general, your elves in literature will be magical creatures and perhaps have some archery going on, your dwarves will be dour engineers and berserkers, etc. These stereotypes combine with the fact that "class" is such an arbitrary concept to create a muddle. I mean, honestly, am I a "dual" class programmer 1/actor 2/historian 2?

This, I think, is part of why so many later RPGs did away with class-based skillsets in favor of a la carte creation and expansion - while DnD's classes preserved the archetypes of Fantasy, they were counterintuitive and, by their interaction, muddled. As the system expanded, it grew more and more complex, and suddenly, instead of having the 4 basic Mage/Warrior/Priest/Rogue concepts that recurr, you had Wizards, and specialized wizards, and now sorcerors, and then warriors and paladins and rangers and berserkers, and you could, of course, be an Elementalist/Warrior, but not an Evoker/Paladin... Crazy stuff.

Essentially, in trying to make the system more "robust" to go beyond the stereotypes, they strayed away from the initial limited set of archetypes the game was really designed to leverage(a la sword & sorcery, epic fantasy), and so now the system is neither fish nor fowl, not realistic enough to think of in normal terms, nor traditional enough to think of in Tolkiennesque ones. So you get a lot of cognitive dissonance between the way you're programmed to think of traditional fantasy, and the way you think about realistic 3-dimensional people, and the balancing act is hard unless you evolved into it from the more traditional days, and thus had a framework to hang things on.

[wintersweet.livejournal.com]

Well, that's how it was in Original D&D, and in the D&D arcade game, so perhaps they had some exposure to that at some point, many long years ago.

[juanfandango.livejournal.com]

Just wait until you try to explain this:

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=12

[kmlahti.livejournal.com]

Stereotypes. Everyone "knows" dwarves are warriors with a big axe and elves skip in trees with a bow and sing. I'd try first asking them to choose a race, then the job for character and more specific details.

class/race

[brucius.livejournal.com]

Well, if you look at lord of the rings; you have a dwarf, an elf, some hobbitses and a wizard. (I know the card game divides them in ranger/warrior etc) but in general they get a one word classification

Heroquest also has something similar, barbarian, elf, sorcerer, dwarf etc. I think (Might have been a board game similar to heroquest) the pit warrior character was invloced if anyone remembers.

Anyway, the point being that seperating class from race is a fairly recent gaming/fantasy occurance from what I know. So if you have a mob of newbies who aren't aware or the in and out's of accepted fantasy norms, can't say I blame them for not seeing the difference.

Like really your asking them to imagine they are an elf/dwarf, that character having an actual job (ranger/priest) is a whole new step in believing it's real enough to play with.

Have you tried saying: pick a race from this list and a job you would like your charcter to do from this other list. (actualy that sounds like dumbing things down a little) but maybe if they are that new, it can't hurt.

[ragnvaeig.livejournal.com]

I don't think there's anything counterintuitive about it, per se, beyond trying to overcome the stereotypical roles played by specific races. (This could be influenced by the fact that my 10-y-o brother understood the concept right off, but he also beats me at chess.) Maybe explain it as "What do you look like?" versus "What do you do for a living?"